Bellerophon is Back! Cold Brewing Whole Beans & Cold Brew / Beer Collaborations

Alex Leech from Bellerophon Cold Brew joins us once again, this time to discuss expanding your market and reach by collaborating with a brewery for a beer release. Alex is always coming up with new and innovative ways to expand his market reach in a new and growing cold brew market. This episode is a great starting point for anyone looking to do the same. The Bellerophon / Pact Beer collaboration brought a unique cold brew to the table in order to keep the cream ale light in color – listen to learn more!

Highlights & Takeaways

Multiple brews & cold brews created before picking the winning combination

Whole bean cold brew used for the “Alter Ego” cold brew cream ale

Reason for whole bean cold brew was to minimize the color addition

Approx 7 gallons of cold brew added to 158 gallons of the beer

What we mentioned on during this show

Episode 86 Transcript

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Brendan Hanson: All right, I’m once again joined by Alex Leech from the Bellerophon Cold Brew, out of Australia. Alex joined us back on episode 48 and 65. If you didn’t listen to those episodes, make sure you go back and check those out. You can find those by going to dripsanddraughts.com/48 or 65. Alex, for the people who didn’t necessarily listen to those, you mind giving us a quick background on yourself.

Alex Leech: Yes, sure. I started getting more into specialty coffee in about 2015 and then wanted to brew something really efficient, delicious at home but didn’t want to spend thousands of dollars on a coffee machine or even really getting hand grinders and all that other peripheral equipment. I had a bit of a look around and cold brew was a really efficient way to brew coffee, in terms of the volumes that you could do and then it was also a really versatile commodity once it was brewed.

You could heat it up, you could drink it as is, you could mix it in other things. I decided to start pursuing that path and there wasn’t that many people doing cold brew in Canberra at that time. I had a crack at that and ended up getting a pretty good product and Cafe asked me to ask me to brew it for their shop and that’s how it all started.

Brendan: Nice and a quick overview on your company Bellerophon and what you do through that.

Alex: Sure, I initially started out as a wholesale only business. Home business wholesaling with the intent of wholesaling into cafes that were doing really good hot coffee but didn’t have the time, effort or space to brew really good cold brew. I saw a bit of a gap in the market there and wanted to pursue that a bit more. I’m not getting a little bit of stainless, just like those brew kettles that you get, yes it’s brewed tech kettles and I got a custom fabricated mesh insert done up and that’s where it all started.

Then slowly extended out, looked at all the numbers and realized that wholesaling is great but direct sales are even better. I moved into more profits and those sorts of things in doing a bit more direct sales to help support that cash flow and ultimately make it a profitable business but still enjoying it at the same time.

Brendan: Nice. Well, you were first on the show, geez about a year ago now. You guys just made it through your winter, you guys are getting into summers. Is the summer there yet?

Alex: Yes, it’s over.

Brendan: Spring?

Alex: It’s spring time. It’s getting warmer but we have quite a– as you do in the States quite a vast, temperature variation across the entire country being a fairly large landmass. That sort of scene somewhere in between 70 and 80 during the day mostly now. It’s getting nice and warm and in the evenings, it’s still quite cool somewhere. Sometimes getting down to around the 40s and still at night. We have quite– Our springs are quite cool in the mornings and quite warm during the days, generally. It’s really nice contrast but sometimes not so good for early-morning farmers markets when it can still be single-digit Celsius that– [crosstalk]

Brendan: Chilly.

Alex: Yes. Cold brew being a seasonal product, it’s sometimes not best.

Brendan: Are you starting to notice– This is off topic but are you starting to notice your market down there becoming a little more educated on cold brew and drinking it more year-round or is it still ebb and flow?

Alex: I definitely have some flows but if you look at comparative figures from years past, in terms of winters, definitely seen an uptake in cold brew during the cooler periods and also an art taking education. Less explaining and describing instead of telling the story of cold brew and Bellerophon specifically. When a customer comes to the counter or into a shop and more of just like, “I know what I want, I’m going to have a nitro and then I’m going to get a second one after I finish that and then I’m done for the day.”

It’s a lot more a definite purchasing knowledge in the consumer. Yes, definitely seen a bit change and we’re definitely– by a long way behind the states in terms of consumption of cold brew during cooler months but still growing and I think that’s really good positive sign.

Brendan: Good, yes, absolutely. Well, cool. Last time you were on with us, we talked about getting your cold brew into bars and restaurants and teaching them how to serve cold brew as a mixed drink. Now, it sounds like you’re working with a brewery or trying to work with breweries to develop cold brew infused beers?

Alex: Yes, absolutely. The coffee martinis and other related beverages on tap. You’ve probably seen a similar growth in that industry in North America but in Australia, it’s just starting to pop up and there’s a few bars that are really getting on board and doing these things using different gases, Co2 Nitro and via gas blend to serve cocktails on tap. I think we were pretty close to one of the first to do it in a high-end cocktail bar. That was start of the year. I think their ownership didn’t really feel like they were ready to move into that space but what I’ve done in the in the meantime, is moved into a tap house.

Looking at when a tap house has lots and lots of beers on tap, maybe a few wines and some basic spirits. Generally, the people that are employed there to serve those drinks aren’t mixologist and aren’t cocktail waiters or drink mixers. I saw a bit of a gap there and said it, “If I can get this into tap houses and breweries, then maybe that’s a really quick and simple alternative for the general people who are into beer to serve a really good quality cocktail on tap and it take not much time at all. They don’t have to buy any of the equipment or any of that stuff.

I moved into that realm and found a small independent tap house who serves– They’ve got nine taps and they serve six local Canberra beers and three Australian beers and only serve Australian liquor throughout the venue. I thought, starting there was a really good test case and we moved there and it ended up selling just the little party cakes in the first opening night, then the same night we launched the alter-ego coffee Cream Ale. We ended up selling, I don’t know, 40 or 50 glasses of cold-brewed martini in a couple of hours. It was a really interesting uptake of the way people were consuming beverages in a tap house.

Brendan: For sure. Going back to that cold brew-tini, you sent us a picture of that and from before. I think that was at the bar, the high-end bar, you had it being served at with the churro alongside it.

Alex: Yes, it was like a martini on tap and then churros for $15 also something. Pretty good deal there.

Brendan: Yes, it looked so good. Well, cool. Let’s talk about how the whole thing with working with the brewery to develop an ale with cold brewing, it came about. Was that your interest, was that their interest coming to you for that? How’d that all come about?

Alex: I was definitely more interest. I’ve always been an advocate for business partnerships and over the past couple years, I’ve sort of being fortunate enough to travel. I fair a bit through North America particularly on the West Coast and I was in Seattle, I think it was last November. I was in this some, I don’t know if you’ve ever been up there, there’s a pub called the Flatstick Pub and they have a nine whole mini-golf indoor course and a whole bunch of games and things like that. I was in there, it was just random. We just rocked up on it, one day and, “Let’s have a beer and some food,” and we’re in there and– [crosstalk]

Brendan: Play some golf.

Alex: Exactly. We did our man of mini golf and drinking lots of beer and ended up tasting a blonde coffee beer there which sparked my interest because all the coffee beers I’ve tasted in the past were big, bold, heavy, stout, porter type coffees beers. The Australian drinking culture has a huge love affair with blonde beers. 92% of people in Australia drink pale ales. That closely followed by IPAs which are again a fairly light beer, at 84%.

I thought it would be a really well-received coffee beer back in Australia. It’s something that might be very interesting and unique and spark some interest in the market to redefine how people consume coffee beers. Not only being a winter drink but can also be a summer drink too.

Brendan: Sure. Nice. You reached out to your local brewery? Is it just one in your area or do you have a lot of breweries around?

Alex: In terms craft breweries in Canberra specifically which is by far the smallest province in Australia. There’s only less than half a million people in the ACT, Australia Capital Territory. It’s like the DC of Australia. There’s four or five craft breweries there but I wanted to work with a company that was small enough to really be on the collaborative process but big enough to have some market share throughout the brand recognized and had some pull in bars and clubs to actually put the beer in those places. There is this company called Pact Beer Company that were a pretty obvious option. They’ve won a raft of awards. They’re Gypsy brewers so they use other people’s equipment to brew all their beer.

Brendan: Interesting.

Alex: It’s a pretty big beer event in Australia called GABS. It’s the Great Australasian Brew Spectacular. They won a bunch of awards in that. They’ve also won Australian International Beer Gypsy Brewer of the year. They’re pretty well received across the beer market. There’s only three of them. It’s a really small company. They do really awesome beers so why not work with them and try and benefit both our brands.

Brendan: Nice. I know as a home brewer that making a beer recipe can be quite a process. Did you collaborate with them on making a recipe for the beer or was it one of their existing beer recipes that you guys just decided let’s add cold brew to this?

Alex: No. Well, the intent was to replicate the beer I tasted in Seattle. I had the name, I had the brewery that brewed it. The intent was just to see if we could replicate something like that using cold brew coffee in a variety of different forms. I didn’t really work with them to develop the recipe but Kevin, the head brewer worked on the beer side and ask if it worked on the coffee side based on the brief that I gave him. We independently worked on the two components. He came up with a traditional Cream Ale and Belgian White as well giving it the similar weight to a Cream Ale just with a lot more weight.

Brendan: Got it. On your side– Wow. Did– I’m getting such huge feedback right now from– I’m hearing my voice. Alex did your mic or your earphones come unplugged.

Alex: No, I can hear you.

Brendan: Geez, I might stop this and try to restart this recording.

Alex: Sure.

Recording 1: Please standby while we deal with our technical difficulties.

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Brendan: All right. Back after a minor technical difficulty there. Alex, we were talking about developing the recipe. The brewer developed the Cream Ale recipe and you worked on the coffee. Is there a specific coffee that you went and sourced looking for a specific profile?

Alex: Yes. We understood the way we wanted to add the coffee was after the ferment. Because we didn’t want to dilute– Obviously when you cook coffee it becomes bitter. Being a cold brewer I didn’t want to have the coffee heated at all. The only way to add that then was after the ferment. I worked on two different brews to go into the two different beers that were the base. The Belgian White and the Cream. Then we added two different cold brew coffees. We did a one to 12 coarse ground filter roast on a washed Ethiopian. That’s my standard brew that I do for the single origins. That was brewed at 24 hours at 39 degrees Fahrenheit, standard deal.

I also worked on a hot balloon. One to 10 of the same coffee for a whole day. Using the boiling water initially for a couple of minutes just to get that initial extraction going because you’re not grinding those beans up. Using a slightly higher concentration of coffee to water to produce a really light almost apple juicy color, a bit darker than apple juice but almost cranberry juice. A combination between people and cranberry juice color so it didn’t change the color of the beer too much. They still get that beautiful blonde ale look.

But you get these notes of coffee. That was the intent behind it. When we added the [unintelligible 00:20:03] pretty delicious. But we wanted something that was very different and hadn’t been done before. Kevin the head brewer isn’t a coffee drinker. He didn’t want anything too overly coffee. I’m glad that we went down that route because as it turned out the Cream Ale with the whole bean was the best.

But it produces really confusing sort of head [bleep] of an idea where you get this fruity notes at the beginning these aromatics of coffee and then this roasty finish but it’s still pure pale or blonde beer through the middle. Almost a subtle coffee taste, fruity aromatics but then masquerades as this springtime stout. It was really interesting. I thought that that was going to be the best way forward because it was something completely different.

Brendan: Nice. They did two beers and you did two coffees. Did you guys play with different mixes and variations when trying to choose this?

Alex: Yes, we pretty much did. We finalized on four variations after trying a few different combinations and ratios of coffee to beer. We were just very conscious to adding obviously basically water and coffee to after the ferment of the beer we changed the beer completely and may ruin it. He’s a pretty crafty brewer. He decided on a few different ratios after doing some math that worked out that that would be okay for the longer storage of the beer.

Brendan: Nice. Let’s talk about cold brewing the whole beans for a minute. That’s pretty interesting. I know as a home brewer, my brother and I, we brewed to white stout once. We were trying to do a big bold beer but the idea was to keep all those dark colors out of it. We used smoked malt instead of dark roasted malts and a lot of paler malts and then some oats to give it some body and thickness.

Then, rather than adding any cold brew to it we actually added whole beans into the fermenter after the beer had fermented. It gave it just such a unique aroma and flavor like you mentioned where you almost swear that you’re drinking coffee even the beer is pale and it looks white. Had you ever cold brewed with whole beans before?

Alex: Yes, I had done it in the past with some really delicate Geishas. I wanted to brew these Geishas that were whole bean to really bring out that tea-like aspect that’s common in a lot of Geishas. I had brewed in the past with a few different coffees just trying in the initial part of the RND when I was starting up the company to do something completely different.

It was nice but it wasn’t really right up my alley. I left that where it was and designed good recipes but they just weren’t appealing to my taste. I didn’t end up running them as a product. But when this project came up I was like, “I think whole bean is going to be the way to go here just so it keeps that beer nice and blonde.” It turned out that was it.

Brendan: Interesting. Any kind of takeaways from a cold brew and the whole beans that you did the same time and temperature and process that you do with your normal cold brew?

Alex: Yes, a little bit, obviously to get the extraction started, I use boiling water and then flash, chilled it down to the 39°F to really stop that first part of the extraction and let the cold brew process do the rest of the work. All that matter was almost identical in terms of time and ratio. Just a couple of points of the standard ratio.

Brendan: Nice. Any idea with the hot water to start was basically just to saturate the beans more or pull a little bit more out at the beginning?

Alex: Yes, if you are a coffee person you’d probably know what is pre-infusion. What coffee machines do when you do a pour over it, you can deposit a volume of hot water into the extraction mechanism or extraction vessel whatever that is whether it’s the espresso part or whether it’s a pour over device, and you put some initial hot water in there to begin that extraction process. That is called “The bloom” typically, and that’s what I was trying to replicate there is get that bloom going which kicks off the extraction process.

Then instead of continuing the brew for, what would only be probably 10 or 20 minutes maybe in with how you move the beans. Flash, chill it and get it in the fridge and let cold brew take over.

Brendan: Got it, awesome. It sounds cool. Having done this now do you think that cold brew and whole beans is something that might ever catch on or you think other cold brewers might start doing that as just kind of a– Go ahead.

Alex: Yes. It’s a very different commodity. There’s already a very, very good coffee shop in Canberra that do cold brew in whole bean only and that’s their theme. Given or not I don’t have a love affair with whole beans. I thought I just let them keep doing that, we’ve got really good working relationships. Yes, I steer clear of the whole bean purely for that factor. Trying to differentiate our products a lot more than just in the cold brew sectors.

Brendan: Sure, cool. Moving on the Cream Ale that you guys decided on with the whole bean cold brew. If you could go back and do it again, is there anything you would change personally with it, or just like that, is it? That’s the Holy Grail, nailed it.

Alex: I think we did a pretty good job for first cracks. In terms of the ratios, we used about 7 gallons or 27 liters in 158 gallons of beer or 600 liters. It was a pretty big brew to scale up from homebrew initially. Then I’d like to change the base of the beer a little bit. The Cream Ale, on purpose, was a bit of a nothing beer from– I’m not a beer judge or a [unintelligible 00:03:51] of beer, but Kevin said that the beer was actually really boring. I think that was on purpose to let the [unintelligible 00:27:46] fruitier, almost black characters come through of the coffee. Probably, I think next time I’d use a lot of roasts.

We used a standard Omni roast which sat in between filter and espresso. Probably around 22% mark. In terms of development, I’ll probably like to use something a lot lighter. What I normally use for my single origin cold brews which is somewhere in the 17-18% development marks. That would be even more confusing for the punter. It ended up coming out of that about 6.1% which for me is a little high. It surprised Kev as well that it came out so high. I think we’d like to see a little bit lower next time and make it something that someone who’s after work can have two or three schooners over [inaudible 00:28:47]— [crosstalk]

Brendan: A little more sessionable, huh?

Alex: Yes. It certainly passed the six pack test in terms of being operative drink, pint after pint. But it just doesn’t bond well for people who are having a couple of drinks after work and still want to drive. You have two 6.1% pints in an hour and you’re pretty well done for most people. We’d probably like to see a little bit lower and obviously, the lower AVB will bring the cost down of the kegs. That makes a little bit more palatable for the consumer on the tail end as well.

Brendan: Yes, definitely. This one was a Cream Ale. Do you– Any ideas on future collaborations? Is there any other kind of beer styles that you might want to venture down a different path whether it be a stout or a potter or something more traditional for coffee?

Alex: Maybe. I’m pretty happy in putting consumers in an uncomfortable head space when consuming coffee beers. I wanted to do a medium IBU, IPA or XPA. A cross between a pale ale and an IPA or maybe even have a crack at a Pacific ale with Galaxy Hops. That’s a Hops produced here in Australia that they use typically in our pacific house to bring that real fruity note out. Trying to match the Hops with the fruity notes of the coffee and trying to create a bit of synergy there.

Brendan: Nice. I’ve actually use Galaxy Hops and some IPAs that we’ve brewed. I’m familiar with that one.

Alex: Yes, maybe even use a blend of extraction tops or do a little bit of maybe a 70 or 80% whole bean and then add in a bit more of grand extraction to get a little bit more depth in the complexity of those nuts. Maybe play around with something like that.

Brendan: Yes, that’s always an option as well. I had a note on here asking just imagining that there wasn’t a lot of cold brew added to the beer since it was a Cream Ale in it. The pictures that I saw that you sent me turned out super light but the whole beans totally made sense and after I saw that. Last time we talked, you talked about introducing cold brew cocktails on a draft to bars to help them increase sales. Do you see the same thing with doing brewery collaborations to help brewers sell to a different market as well as to get your product in front of a different market?

Alex: Absolutely, yes. This collab specifically was about testing the waters with other craft beverage industries and bringing something unique to the markets. Given the low volume of cold brew that went into this product instead of 7 gallons and 160 yearly, it wasn’t really bad sales per se. More about the marketing component of that. Obviously, if the beer was consumed and sold very quickly which by all accounts it was the fastest seasonal beer selling that I’ve ever done. That’s a positive note.

We might look at investing a little bit more into it and getting into single consumable vessels rather than just keg release. Do bottles or cans or something like that in the future but ultimately, it was about brand recognition and getting the coffee and the brand of Alter Ego, which is the name of the beer. For obvious reasons and getting Pact and Bellerophon together and working in a collaborative environment for future game hopefully.

Brendan: Going back to Pact, you mentioned they were Gypsy Brewer basically they go from brewery to brewery and brew on other people’s systems and equipment. How is their distribution? Do they basically serve it at the brewery that they brewed it at or are they taking kegs and doing events or a little both?

Alex: Yes, a little of both actually. They do a lot of keg beer. They have do four or five of their lines in bottles and in cans. They’re getting a lot larger and they’ve only been around a couple of years, I think three or four years. But they recently picked up a gig at a local festival here to do beer in cans. They do a summer ale in cans, and that’s been their gigs, pushing to I guess what we call the younger mainstream market here.

That festival’s actually on next weekend. They’ve picked up the rights to that again and it went really well for them. But typically only Canberra based and there’s a few pubs and stuff outside of the state which serve packed. But they don’t do a lot of interstate distribution. It’s pretty localized.

Brendan: Got it. Make sense. Well cool. Since we’re talking about distribution a little bit here, let’s talk about cold brew and canning and bottling cold brew and shelf stability. We recently had an episode and a scare here in the States with Death Wish coffee. I don’t know if you heard about them but– [crosstalk]

Alex: I did. It was all over the news here as well and it got into mainstream media here which was something that for me wasn’t ideal. But I don’t serve stuff in cans at shelf stable temperatures. It wasn’t too much of a concern but it was definitely an eyeopener for a lot of cold brewers in Australia as well.

Brendan: Definitely. Do you have any thoughts on shelf stability or if not shelf stability basically keeping your product cold like the cold chain– From you brewing it to the time it’s sold to the consumer. Any thoughts on that whole process?

Alex: Yes. I’m very lucky in the sense that being a one-man show I can guarantee the cold chain logistics from where I brew the cold brew to the shops that I deliver it to because I do everything in that process. I’m pretty particular about that side of things. But a lot of cold brewers fairly have hazard and a bit cowboyish when it comes to that. A lot of cold brewers have also come from hot coffee as well where they’ve enjoyed the components of hot coffee essentially. But always being poured over water that’s a couple of a hundred degrees Fahrenheit which is going to kill everything and generally hot coffee is consumed then and there so the risks are a lot lower.

Brendan: Right.

Alex: I really think that a lot of cold brewers need to up their game and start looking into the science of it and understand what’s actually going on in your particular brew. because each process is so different and each extraction right is different and the conditions in which they’re going to contain is also very different. It will take someone getting sick to get people to start thinking about this in more of a serious light because the possibilities is there. There’s a lot of cold brewers in Australia who are shipping their products that have been bottled in facilities that don’t have retort processes, that don’t have HPP processes or pasteurization processes applied to it.

These guys are shipping stuff all over the country at ambient. I hope there’s enough oxygen in those containers to prevent the growth of C-Bot and other microbes. It’s concerning to me and I’ve turned down probably close to 10 partnerships now which wanted to put my products into an ambient condition and then send them across Australia in a variation of different packages like hampers and those sorts of things and then in other gift packs.

I was just like, “I need cold chain logistics.” And they were like, “Oh, it stays pretty cool all year around.” And I was like, “Well, if it’s sitting in someone’s doorstep from 9:00 A.M to 5:00 P.M and it’s 100 degrees Fahrenheit outside, that box is going to get pretty hot.” For me, I was uncomfortable with that and I didn’t want my product or branding associated with any sort of health stare because that’s a sure fire away to end your business really quick.

Brendan: Yes, no kidding. Let’s hope that everybody else takes it as seriously as you are and does the right thing in terms of packaging and processing.

Alex: Absolutely. I’m just getting into that side where I’m about to put some stuff into cans and do some homemade retort style processes with steam and even just do some testing and pasteurization just to see how the product handles. Because I’m not a fan of heating the cold brew and then the only other option is cold chain logistics and that’s obviously very expensive. There’s got to be a decision made there on which way you go.

Brendan: Absolutely. Well cool, Alex. I think we’ve pretty much gone through our entire outline here. Anything else you want to add before we wrap this up?

Alex: Maybe just a bit on the cold brewed teas. Last time we spoke we sort of spoke a little bit about cold brewed teas. I’ve been looking into serving teas on nitro without milk though. I’m using a milky oolong now and doing some tests on those teas and serving them nitro to see how they hold up and pretty tasty. That might be something that’s a really great option, particularly for carbonation and mixing with other products to produce a really cool carbonated cold brewed tea. That could be interesting as well.

Brendan: Tea is pretty versatile in that. You can put it on nitro and that rich frothiness gives it a unique characteristic that you don’t normally expect from tea. But then on the flip side, you can carbonate it and serve it sparkling and it’s just as refreshing it’s a fun product, cold brewing tea.

Alex: The volumes that you use are so much lower which makes it hugely profitable as well. I think we’re– [crosstalk]

Brendan: Cleanup’s a hundred times easier as well.

Alex: Yes. You just scrap some tea leaves out of the bottom of the container and give it a rinse and you’re good to go. [laughs]

Brendan: Exactly.

Alex: It’s going to be interesting to see this next summer period. The tea has picked up a little bit but nothing like the nitro has. The growth of nitro cold brewing in my sales is are going to probably makes up about 60% of my sales. It’s well and truly over half.

Brendan: The balance of that is just regular flat cold brew?

Alex: Yes, flat cold brew and milk based as well. I do a milk based.

Brendan: Is that on draught or are you pouring milk in after the fact?

Alex: No, I’m actually mixing it. I’ve got a partnership with a dairy. I’m mixing it into their milk bottles and then resealing them essentially in a closed space to have a premixed you probably call it half a gallon of milk in a bottle. I just keep them on ice and serve them at the markets out of the milk bottle.

Brendan: Nice.

Alex: I don’t know how I feel about putting dairy in my beverage lines.

Brendan: In your draught lines?

Alex: Yes. I’m not sure how that would go.

Brendan: That’s a lot more cleaning and maintenance you’ve got to worry about when you do that.

Alex: I hear those proteins in the milk are a bit sticky on the inside of those lines. I don’t really want to be using super high-grade acids to get rid of them.

Brendan: Make sense. Well cool man. I appreciate you getting up and hopping on here with us again. We’ll have to keep checking in with you and all you guys down in Australia, see how things are going. But congrats on the brewery collaboration, I think that’s awesome.

Alex: Well, I was talking to them the other day and we agreed that if I was to get a little skin in the game that we might end up putting it in bottles or cans. It might be something to see in the next 12 to 18 months.

Brendan: If we do see that, I’m going to have to twist your arm and have you send some up this way.

Alex: Not a problem.

Brendan: [laughs] Well cool Alex. If people want to go find you online or find your product in the market or in stores where can they go to do that?

Alex: A bit of a tongue twister but bellerophoncoldbrew.com.au. And then the Instagram handle bellerophoncoffee. We’ll be on those two. If you want to get in contact just flicks out name out and we’ll have a chat. The online shop should be up in the next couple of weeks. We’re doing pre-orders for a bit of a merge as well. If you want to get some bellerophon match, get on there and check it out.

Brendan: Right on. Sounds good Alex. Well as always, I appreciate and take care. We’ll talk soon.

Alex: Thanks, Brendan. We’ll talk soon.